[arcfinn]

What is considered a good winning percentage when playing "no fold'em hold'em? Tonight I played 120 hands on Party Poker .50/1.00 and only won 1 out of 120 hands. I opened betting with a raise on 7 hands and called on 5, of course not including the small and big blinds. The opening pocket cards were as follows: AKo,JJ,AQo,AQo,ATo,TT,JJ,TT,AQo,AJs,ATo,and AKo. These were my only playable pocket cards out of 120 hands. The pot was $9 on the only hand that I won, JJ. Believe it or not I lost only $22.50 total in this cold run of cards. I follow Lee Jones' advice on opening hands and how to play them. Is this just a very cold run I experienced? What would be statistically typical over the long haul on winning hands versus total hands and winning hands versus total hands where one opened with a bet.
Here are the pocket cards the other players held that beat my opening cards. 54s, A6s,AKs,92o,K9s,K8o, and Q2s. The other hands were not shown since they won without a showdown. 71 out of the 120 hands played were played to showdown. Is this what one would one consider normal for a loose holdem ring with 10 players. I use what I would consider very good strategy when playing my hands. Is it typical to have a run like I just experienced? Should I not play such a loose table? Most players seem to open with any A,K ,Q,or J, any connectors, and any two suited cards. At least one player plays every hand no matter what. I would think this is a dream table to play at if one plays a tight aggressive style.
Any advice.
I think I jinxed myself by keeping such detailed statistics on the hands I played, but I found it is a good way to see if my bad run is justified or whether I played badly. Also it keeps me busy when I am not playing a hand.

[chris]

Poker is very odd mix of skill and luck. Most players have not figured out how much luck is really involved in any given hand. This luck factor is a good thing; it causes bad players to have winning sessions. This re-enforces their bad play and keeps them coming back.

When the cards are running like this, there is nothing you can do, except limit your losses. If you win only 1 of 120 hands and you are down only $22.50, you are doing very well.

Low limit, no foldem holdem is a strange beast. It would almost seem like you could walk away with the money without much effort. But with so many players drawing to so many different hands, your fluctuations are going to be greater than a tight, predictable game.

120 is not much of a sample size. Anything can happen in such a short span of time. Now, if you accumulate 120,000 hands of play and you have still won only 1 in 120, there is something wrong.

Keep playing tight-aggressive and the money will come to you. Good luck and don't get discouraged.

[razor]

Hey,
Play some hands!LOL. I know how you feel. One day I didn't win a hand for 3 hours at TruePoker..180 hands.
One other day I started to run bad and it didn't stop for 5 months. Now I get to play live and have other people see the look of sheer disgust and frustration on my goofy face when someone hits their 2 outer. I am often on tilt, I even dream of losing and go on tilt in my sleep. I won over 300 today and I'm still on tilt.
I hope it turns around for you.

[arcfinn]

Thanks for your valuable input, it is appreciated.
Ok another session of 121 hands following the bad run. Here is what happened. A little better but not much.
Starting Hands
called raised
UTG TT lost BB KK lost
BB 99 lost Cutoff A9o won
BB JTs won Cutoff ATo lost
BB 55 lost Middle AA won
SB 22 lost Cutoff JJ lost
BB A8s lost Won 2 Lost 3
SB K9s lost
Button KJo lost
Button QJo lost
Won 1 Lost 8
Total Won 3 Lost 11 Split 1
So that's 3 wins out of 121 hands played. Again a typical no fold'em hold'em, 79 hands went to showdown. Players playing any suited, connectors, any J,Q,K,orA, and maybe one or two playing any two cards.
For two sessions that's 4 wins out of 242 hands played.
This time I only lost $8.00. For two sessions I have lost $30.50.
I will give you my analysis of my third session later. How long do I play before my hole is so deep I won't climb out for months? Will my luck change or should I write Lee Jones for a refund?
I will post some of my hands for analysis so you can see if I play my cards right on the ever so few I can play. Thanks again.

[razor]

Hey,
In those types of games you should play any pair and any suited ace in any position so that you are building nut flushes and full houses. Big unsuited cards go down in value. Forget bluffing or slowplaying for the most part. Value betting is in. Sooner or later you will flop your set or hit your flush and your opponents will pay you off all the way. Expect your top pairs to get rivered often, but when they hold up you will get paid.
This type of game can be very frustrating, but if passive, you can play more hands than normal and when your hands hit the board, you can have big sessions.

[arcfinn]

Now for today's session of no fold'em hold'em.
Played 119 hands. Typical internet loose players, but this time a player that played any hand and almost always chased with the remotest chance of improving was present. This player didn't have a clue. This is .50/1.00 limit hold'em and I watched this player lose $50.00 in less than an hour. Too bad I didn't win any of this free money.
Anyway, I called with 9 starting hands and lost them all and split one. AQo,QJo,99,TT,QJs,KJo,88,QJs, and JTo. I raised with 7 starting hands and won 3, split 1, and lost 3. AKo,KJs,A9o,AJo,KQo,AQs,and QQ. I won 2 and lost 23 with other hands from the blinds. My total loss this session $15.50.
My losses are $46.00 in 360 hands played. I have won 9 total hands out of 360 played or a 2.5% win rate. This is truly terrible, no.
"Evenmoney" you suggested I play Axs and any pairs from any position in a passive game. Players are regularly raising so I wouldn't call the game passive. My first session I had NO Ace suited pockets and 5 pairs. I played all pairs except for 22 when it was raised preflop in front of me. The second session I had 2 aces suited. I played one from the blind and the other I folded from middle position with no callers in front. I had 7 pairs and only folded one to a preflop raise and would have flopped a set and won a good pot against pocket AA, but that was reraised preflop and one would not stay in from the BB with 99 here, right. The third session I had 5 aces suited, two played from the blind and 3 folded. I had 6 pairs, played 3 folded 3 one because of a raise in front. One of my pairs floped a set but I folded to a raise that showed down with a straight. One that I folded preflop because of a raise showed down a straight.
So "evenmoney" it wouldn't have made any difference if I followed your advice. I think I play a smart tight aggressive style I even won a couple of hands I probably would have lost but the timing of my bets caused mucks. So in that case I could have won only 7 hands out of 360. Looks to me that a win percentage of around 5% would get me even and maybe 5-7% would give me winning sessions.
I am not giving up since this was all bonus money for opening a new account. I had to play 250 hands to get my bonus and I was actually up at one time around $20.00 and played another 250 hands and for some stupid reason got bored and decided to keep detailed records of my play and look where it got me. Ever since I did that I've lost. I haven't given up because the fishing is good and I know my luck has got to change if I stay the course. I know higher limits are my goal, but I need this low cost play for my training don't you think.

From what I read in Lee Jones' book on low limit hold'em you should only call Ace suited late if you have 3 or more callers to make the flush draw with the right pot odds. The same goes for small pairs to give you the proper payoff if you flop the set. My winning percentage with pockets 22-TT is 8 wins and 27 loses. Isn't that about 2.5 to 1, not bad, but I have been very selective about position and number of players calling when I play these.

I'll try again but I have to admit losing does take the fun out of poker and makes it hard to watch true idiots rake pots. I know I am supposed to be happy when this happens because eventually I will get his money, but it hasn't happened lately. I would have a hard time of it if this was live poker. TILT! on my ass. I might not be able to control what I would say at a live table, but I can keep it under control with internet poker.

[chris]

arcfinn,it sounds like you are playing pretty solid poker. Keep it up!

I don't like limping with Axs in early position under any circumstances. Sometimes, when I'm desperate to play a hand and the game is fairly passive, I will play A9s early, but that's about it. The rest are mucked without a thought.

Pocket pairs 22-66 are terrible. I will call a raise with these only if five players are already in the pot. 77 and 88 are in the same boat after a raise. 99 and TT are more difficult. If you constantly call raises with these hands, you will do no better than break even with them, and probably lose. You must be selective with these hands, either many or very few players.

If you are in the BB, you've got to play 99 here for raise. I would call down to 77 in any circumstance. With more players, definitely call any pair. Otherwise, you won't be defending your blinds often enough. If players pick up on that habit, you will be continually raised off your BB. I am probably overly tight in the BB.

Don't pay too much attention to your short-term losses. Also, do not worry about what portion of hands you win. The money is what's important. You will win fewer hands than anyone else at the table on a consistent basis if you are playing correctly (tight).

[johnf]

Arcfinn,
Don't give it up. From what you've posted you seem to play very well, and your time sure will come.

Even though I generally recommend new players to move up one limit at a time, and build their bankroll at a lower limit before moving up, I think I will make an exception with you. I think you should move up to 2-4$ quite soon. The reason is that you seem very capable of playing tight already. Therefore I think your playing style is more fit for a higher level.

I think that at 0.5-1$ you really need to play a lot more hands then you normally would. Basically you should play most of the hands you would normally only play from late position, from any position. Given the number of players in the pot with pure garbage hands, you stand a good chance of winning with any of these hands when you hit the flop. Don't worry too much about a raise behind you either. At 0.5-1$ a raise can mean anything really, and when you hit a J high flop for your J10o, just call it dead. 50% of the time you'll find a startraiser holding 22, another player holding J2 off and 2 other players staying to the end with a small piece of the board.

So my advice would be to loosen up slightly on the starthand selection, play tight aggressive on the flop and hope for the best. That's how I managed to beat the game.

Finally at 0.5-1$ you will have sessions like that. Actually you will have a lot of them, as you have a lot of players drawing against your hands. Break as even as you can during those sessions, and wait for the days when they all draw dead. When it rains it pours.

Good luck

Oh and by the way. No matter what your bankroll says, you're a good player.

[arcfinn]

Thanks for your input on my play and your support is appreciated. I learn something new everyday by reading the posts on this forum.

Today more of the same except this session the players were much tighter but what I might consider passive or maybe weak. Not much raising and a couple of players were stealing pots I think. The reason I think they were stealing is they won a lot of hands that never played past the flop or turn. The other players would back down possibly way too many times when they were bet into. I couldn't do anything about it because I am still running cold. I only had a very short run of good or great starting cards. I managed to get up 7.00 before my slow and agonizing downward spiral started again.

I played 117 hands this session. Had 6 raising hands and won 4 of those. My calling hands with good starting cards I won 3 and lost 11 with 1 split. So I had 7 winning hands out of 117. My best win percentage out of the 4 I have been tracking in detail. That makes me 16 wins out of 477 hands played or 3.35%. I am now down 54.00 so I have lost my entire 50 dollar bonus plus 4.00 out of my own pocket. I had a bad beat where someone rivered a gut shot straight to my 2 pair, a mistaken call by me with K6o that won the hand, he he, made a mistake by capping preflop with ATo from the SB, raised a bet on the flop with a flush draw and got a free card on the river (didn't get flush though), and that was it, nothing of any consequence, just very dull tight playing. I just didn't play much after the flop because there was nothing on the board to warrant it. One thing that bothered me was players winning with Axo, Kxo, and Qxo continually. If I played that way I would be down 3 times what I am now. Also the two players that had their way by either semibluffing or all out bluffing by just betting out until the weaker player would fold. That seemed more common because of the tight, weak, passive nature of the players. How can one counter a player that steals alot. It seemed that everytime it went to showdown these two guys had the hand, so they may have just been extremely lucky playing marginal hands or maybe they were getting a great run of starting hands. I can't be sure because they never got caught on a showdown. They both seemed to know the proper time to bluff by using position and being aggressive when the flop was a rag. I would like some comment about how to use this to ones advantage.

Someone on this forum made a comment regarding how many sessions in row is it possible to lose before you would be regarded as a bad player. I think he claimed 5 in row was the max and if you lost more than that you were a bad player. I'm only one session away from losing 5 in a row, but I don't think I am a bad player, just having a run of bad luck I think.

This all may seem very petty to alot of you high rollers, but I am a beginner that appreciates your input. Hope you're not to disgusted by this low limit commentary. Maybe some other ultra-low limit beginners will understand where I am coming from.

Later I will post my story of how I got started in poker and why the bug bit me. It might be interesting to hear what others have to say about their humble and bumbling beginnings.

Tommorrow I will play session number 5 and keep you posted on the continuing saga of "arcfinn's" bad run.

[lork]

Hey,
You had better win tonight or else. If you lose tonight, that means it's all over and you will have to be like me..playing go-fish with Victor,drinking your bankroll and chanting colluders and hackers and bots, oh my!

You should get familiar with the semi-bluff and free card raises. Sincere poker players are few and far between. If someone always bluffs, you slowplay and check call. They will keep betting your hand until you pop them out of their cyber-seat on the turn or river. Then type in HawYeeeeeeaaaaah. They like that.

[johnf]

Arcfinn,from what I've read so far I think you've got what it takes. But with 4 loosing sessions in a row, I think there must be something you're doing wrong, probably post-flop.
You've got the right attitude to the game, so with time I think you should stand a good chance of ending up as a winning player.

best luck

[arcfinn]

The pressure is off I came out ahead $16.00 on my 5th session. Now I am down $38.00 for my 5 sessions. Yeeeeee!!!!! Haaaaaa!!!!!
I won 9 hands out of 124 played. That makes me 25 out of 601 hands for 5 sessions(4.16%). I finally received more starting hands than in the previous 4 sessions. I had 14 starting hands I raised with and 9 hands I called with.
Much better than the previous sessions. Maybe I am out of my slump of bad pocket cards and no help flops. Z I don't think I am making many mistakes I think I am just having one of those bad runs we all dread.

To start out the session I received AA, what a relief, and I flopped a set. Won the hand no problem. Everyone folded when I raised my KQo for win number 2, so no flop. Q8s made me 3 for 3. Then a loss with AKs. This is a hand I will post for review to get your comments on how I should have played. A raise with AJs won, when the flop was a rag, so I bet and all folded, sort of a bluff I guess. Then I went into another slump that had me worried. Only one winner with AKo out of 80 hands. Actually I made a mistake on one hand that cost me a win. I had T9s on button, checked around on the flop that gave me gut shot staight draw. When the turn came up a K I foolishly checked the fold button instead of the check/fold button. No one bet the turn so I was automatically folded. Guess what popped up on the river, yep, my gut shot straight. Luckily the pot was small, so no big loss. It didn't get me down I just said to myself "it figures" the way my luck was running lately. Yikes it looks like another losing session, then the turn around. Horray!! Started off with a win in the BB with 98s. Another big winner on the very next hand SB with 65s that flopped a high side straight. I was bet into and slow played it until the turn when I checked, MP bet, LP raised, and I reraised (surprise) and the betting was capped. YES!!!! I bet on river, raised, fold, reraise, call, I win a good pot. Probably beat a set and 2 pair. Best I had since my posts on this forum. Five hands later even better, KK. I pumped these until river and they held up with a couple of callers and I won my biggest pot so far. What a relief!

Tonight I am playing in three online tourneys, so I won't play another ring game until tomorrow, Sunday night.

Last night I went to a friends monthly home game for the first time. I had to play games I am not familiar with and I ended up losing $92.00, ouch. But I wasn't concerned because the stakes were 10/20 with a kill played if one player won a $70 pot for Omaha 8 or $100 for any other pot. We played Cincinnati, double flop holdem with 3 pocket cards, double flop Omaha 8 with 5 pocket cards, a Pineapple variation where you started with 5 pocket cards and threw one away with each betting round until you had two cards left, some wild card hands and even Lowball draw occassionally. The game lasted 7 hours and at these stakes I felt pretty good at my outcome being a newbee, considering my experience with these games (zero) and the first time I have played High stakes poker(10/20 with a kill doubling those stakes). Anyone else play these games before.

So anyway, I am NOT A LOSER yet! In the opinion of the "5 losses in a row and you suck" theory proponents. I know, "this is .50/1.00 no fold'em hold'em you silly man."
I will post some of the hand histories of hands I may have played wrong soon. I look forward to your expert opinions and comments. Thanks.

[johnf]

Two comments. First. Don't ever slowplay a made straight. You will always get callers as a lot of players will hang around with 1 card for the straight. So just bet out strong. Slowplaying will only cost you a bet.

Secondly, from your last post, it seems that you are playing pretty solid poker, but you are playing the kind of poker that is played at higher limits. In no foldem holdem games you can rest assured that you will normally have multiway pots. This means that you can loosen up and play some more starting hands, namely the ones that do well multiway, e.g. small pairs and any Ax suited. But stick to playing these hands from late position. You want to know where you're at when playing these hands.

In a no foldem holdem game I usually see some 19-20% of the flops (not including the blinds). I know this is slightly loose, but I think it is necessary to be a little more loose in these games.

It's basically the same as for multitable tourneys. In the first hours you have a lot of multiway pots, and you have to loosen up accordingly. Later in the tourney most pots are heads up, and you should tighten up to your normal standards.

[pritz]

If it's any consolation, arcfinn, you have made this novice realise that sitting around folding ad infinitum is not as abnormal as I was beginning to think. One man's experience is another man's education.

Speaking as a gambler in general, I think you apply your brain to your poker too much to be a loser in the long term. As for the short term, I would rather be a loser who learns why he lost than a winner who hasn't a clue why he won and will never be bothered to find out.

[quickie]

Following up Jonhf comment on not slowplaying a made straight: this is great advice.

In fact I VERY rarely slowplay any hand. Why not? Many players will very often call a flop bet, then fold for a turn bet. You will also oftentimes be raised on the flop. You can then smooth call or reraise, depending on what looks like the best strategy.

Another consideration is that if you slowplay and wait until the turn to checkraise or make a power play, then players can put you on a strong hand more easily and fold at that point. If you bet the flop and they are in there calling, they will not know where they should have released the hand (after the hand is done).

Betting out also gives more credibility to your flop bluffs and semi-bluffs.